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Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Interview on NBC with Andrea Mitchell
Washington, DC
December 19, 2005
QUESTION: Madame Secretary, welcome and thank you
very much for doing this today.
SECRETARY RICE: Glad to do it, Andrea.
QUESTION: We've heard so much from the President,
from you, from others in the Administration defending
the eavesdropping on Americans. Why was it necessary
to do this without going to the court when the court
is available? And what we've seen in the past couple
of years since 9/11 is that there have been more
than 4,900 applications to this court, and only
four have ever been rejected.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, first let me just state what
it is the President authorized. He authorized the
National Security Agency to collect information
in a very limited fashion on the activities of people
who have links to al-Qaida and how those links might
be communicated to people who are terrorists and
involved in terrorist plotting abroad. This is about
the geographic territory of the United States and
not allowing American territory to be a safe haven
for conversations between people with terrorists
links here and terrorists abroad. It's the kind
of gap between our domestic territory and foreign
territory that was cited so often in the September
11 Commission where we understood that our intelligence
agencies were looking outward, our law enforcement
agencies were looking inward and there was no way
to close the gap between them.
Now the President used authorities that are granted
to him in by the Constitution, Article 2 and other
statutory authorities. I think the Attorney General
spoke to these authorities earlier and so did the
President. The need to do this is because of the
different nature of these people and their communication,
without getting into the program which we still
want to protect. This is a -- these are agile communicators,
and we have to be more agile. These FISA act,the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, 1978 under
very different circumstances against more stable
targets, longer term monitoring; and it's the difference
between the need for monitoring the difference --
and monitoring and detection.
QUESTION: But you said "limited" just
now. You said it was not very extensive. But the
actual number is 4,713 applications between 2002
and 2004. That doesn't sound very limited and the
judge involved who was appointed to this post by
the late Chief Justice Rehnquist -- no bleeding
heart liberal, this person -- she has only denied
four requests and modified one. So what -- first
of all, that doesn't sound very limited.
SECRETARY RICE: But Andrea, I'm not talking about
the number of applications to FISA when I talk about
limited. I'm talking about the nature of this program
that the President authorized. And there -- this
is a program that is very carefully controlled.
It is reviewed constantly.
QUESTION: But all by in-house lawyers.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, it's reviewed by the lawyers
of the National Security Agency, it's reviewed by
their Inspector General, reviewed by Justice Department
lawyers and by the way, briefed to leadership in
the Congress and,in particular, the leadership of
the Intelligence Committees.
QUESTION: Of course, those who objected such as
Senator Rockefeller, by reports, couldn't object
publicly without breaking the law, so they couldn't
really --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, this was briefed more than
a dozen times -- more than a dozen times. And so
I think there is an issue -- I'm not going to get
into questions of what people are saying about those
conversations, but it was briefed more than a dozen
times. And the need for this program I think is
clear. The President has certain responsibilities
as Commander-in-Chief to protect the country. He
also has certain responsibilities to protect the
civil liberties of Americans. Those are his constitutional
duties and he's performing them.
QUESTION: Well, you were National Security Advisor
at the time. What was your lawyer at the National
Security Council telling you in terms of whether
or not this was legal?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, Andrea, I'm not going to go
into internal deliberations. It was a carefully
considered decision and the attorney general has
spoken to the legal authorities under which this
takes place.
QUESTION: How does this affect you as America's
chief diplomat? You had difficulties in Europe defending
U.S. position regarding the allegations of secret
prisons in Eastern Europe. How does this affect
our reputation
overseas?
SECRETARY RICE: I think that people understand that
America is a country of laws, it is a country that
defends and protects those laws. This is an issue
of the President's constitutional authority as the
President of the United States; and so it is appropriate
that it is something that is spoken to by the Attorney
General and, to the degree that needs be, spoken
to by people who are asking questions of Congress.
But in terms of our reputation abroad, I don't think
there is any doubt that America is viewed as a country
of laws. When I left Europe, we had any number of
Foreign Ministers saying that they understood better
what we were saying. Perhaps they didn't like every
answer. But we're in a different kind of war. And
people will have to understand that the President
has a very strong belief in and obligation to protect
our civil liberties and our civil rights. He also
has a very strong obligation to protect us as a
country. And unless you can detect terrorist plots
-- you know, intelligence is the long pole in the
tent in the fight against terrorism because once
you've allowed somebody to commit the crime, then
thousands of people have died. This is not traditional
law enforcement. This is not even traditional intelligence.
This is detection of activity in a very rapid way
against shadowy networks that cross our domestic
and foreign boundaries.
QUESTION: Do you have any concerns, personal concerns,
about this becoming a slippery slope? Once you expand
presidential authority, whether it's over domestic
eavesdropping or secret prisons, that you're getting
into an are that is potentially dangerous for this
country long term?
SECRETARY RICE: Well,first of all, I don't want
to speak to specific intelligence issues, but I
do want to speak to the need to remember that on
September 11, we were both blind inside the country
and we were deaf inside the country. And that couldn't
be allowed to continue. If the United States is
going to be protected from terrorists who know no
boundaries, then it's necessary for the President
to use his powers, his authorities under the Constitution
and to use them legally. But I think the American
people would expect the President to do everything
that he can within the law to protect us. The President
understands and I understand that we are a country
of laws. We are a country that is particularly concerned
with our civil liberties. They're enumerated, in
ways that they are not for many countries, in our
Constitution. They are the core of who we are. And
the President is both going to protect us in --
physically and protect our civil liberties.
QUESTION: There's a new report today of eight prisoners
of Guantanamo who say that they were held in a secret
prison in Afghanistan and physically abused.They
claimed it was torture. They said that they were
beaten. They were denied food and water. And this
has been substantiated by a human rights group.
SECRETARY RICE: Well, any such claims are always
investigated. And I will say that there are often
-- often lots of things are said, lots of things
have gone around. They're going around often without
evidence. If there is evidence, I would encourage
it to -- encourage people to get in touch with those
who can investigate it. There also have been repeated
visits of international groups to Guantanamo to
look at the conditions there. The fact is this --
QUESTION: This was the complaint -- this complaint
was that they were held in Afghanistan where there
were no Red Cross --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, Andrea, let's be realistic
here. We have a choice. We pick up people on the
battlefield clearly engaged in activities against
the American forces, or terrorist activities, or
links to terrorist organizations.We can either hold
them or we can let them go. Eventually, they will
be brought to justice. But I don't think anybody
expects us to simply release terrorists into --
and people who we've -- who we've encountered on
the battlefield in places like Afghanistan, just
release them into the general population. It makes
no sense. And in fact, we have released some people
from Guantanamo who we've met again on the battlefield.
We've tried to release as many people as possible.
And when there have been cases where we felt that
there was no reason -- want to any longer hold people,
they've been released. Sometimes they've been released
into the custody of home governments, sometimes
they've been released more in general. But there
are dilemmas here, and these are not easy answers;
and it's facile to say well, you should just let
them go. But this President has a responsibility
to protect the American people, to protect our allies.
And I would ask any who are concerned about detention
in a place like Guantanamo, whether they would rather
have dangerous people released into their midst.
QUESTION: Turning to Iraq, there's now been a release
of prisoners, including "Mrs. Anthrax"
and "Dr. Germ." These are two women who
we were told for many years were deeply involved
in secret biological warfare program,s and other
programs. Are you satisfied that these two women
should be released from Iraqi prisons, and they're
now traveling to Jordan?
SECRETARY RICE: The Iraqis have a process that is,
I think, a fair process for bringing to justice
those against whom they have evidence. I don't know
the details of these cases at this point. But it
does show that the process that the Iraqis are going
through is one that is a process that tries to do
justice; and the interesting thing is that under
Saddam Hussein, of course, there was not even the
pretense of a system of justice.
QUESTION: Do you have any regrets, personal regrets,
about some of the Rhetoric that you and others in
the Administration used about mushroom clouds and
other rather frightening suggestions of weapons
of mass destruction, now that we know that there
were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, weapons of mass
destruction are frightening, and they're frightening
particularly in the hands of a tyrant, and they're
frightening when the international community can't
get answers from a tyrant like Saddam Hussein.
QUESTION: It was the predicate for war.
SECRETARY RICE: It was the -- but it was also the
belief of intelligence agencies around the world,
the UN Security Council that kept asking Saddam
Hussein to answer for large stores of unaccounted-for
weapons materials. And so, Andrea, the fact of the
matter is that what you say, what you know today
can affect what you do tomorrow. It can't affect
what you did yesterday. And what we know today is
simply the case that perhaps he did not have the
stocks of weapons of mass destruction that we thought
he had. But was he a threat?
Absolutely he was a threat. This was someone who
had used weapons of mass destruction in the past.
This was someone who was filling his own country
with -- mass graves with his own people. This was
someone who was flying – shooting at our aircraft,
trying to fly no-fly zones to keep his forces under
control,someone paying suicide bombers who committed
atrocities against Israel. This was a threatening
presence in the most volatile region in the world.
And after 17 resolutions and time and time again,
it was time to take care of him.
QUESTION: Your predecessor Colin Powell said that
his presentation to the UN he now feels is a blot
on his record of public service, and also that he
felt that in retrospect Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld
were going to the President behind his back. Do
you feel that there was a deliberate attempt to
mislead?
SECRETARY RICE: I actually don't know. I don't know
to what Secretary Powell was referring. Colin and
I are very goods friends, and I think he was a terrific
Secretary of State. I think he had an excellent
relationship with the President, and I think he
had access to the President whenever he wanted access
to the President. And on all decisions of any import,
the President heard the views of everybody who had
a view.
QUESTION: Carl Levin said -- the member the Armed
Services Committee, said to Tim Russert that if
the Sunnis and the Shiites cannot work out their
problems, we need to pressure them; that the U.S.
now needs to really put pressure on the Iraqis to
get this political process, now that they've successfully
had this extraordinary election. How much pressure
should the U.S. put on the Iraqis to come together
and fix their constitution and make the other tough
political decisions they need to make?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, of course it has to be an
Iraqi process. And I think there's a presumption
in the question that we somehow more want a working
Iraq,an effective government than the Iraqis do.
I think they actually want an effective government.
I think they understand that they need to overcome
their sectarian differences. I hear one voice talking
about civil war; that's Zarqawi. I hear most Iraqis
talking about trying to form a unified Iraq on the
basis of democratic principles where all their interests
can be represented.
Our Ambassador Zal Khalilzad has excellent relations
with the Iraqis. He's been very engaged. He was
very engaged at the time of the writing of the constitution.
He'll be very engaged now in helping them. But it
is also an Iraqi process and that's the whole point
of democracy is that people have to come to terms.
I think they will.
QUESTION: How big a threat is Iran, especially with
the new Iranian President saying that Israel should
be wiped off the map and that there was no Holocaust,
denying the Holocaust?
SECRETARY RICE: I don't think there is any doubt
that this Iranian President has sharpened the contradictions
greatly. He's made it very clear that whatever was
once a face of Iran that perhaps looked more diplomatic,
perhaps is not what the Iranian regime is really
all about. These are outrageous statements and they're
dangerous statements. They're dangerous --
QUESTION: Do they help you persuade the Europeans
to side with us against Iran?
SECRETARY RICE: I think people are clearly starting
to see that it is outrageous for the President of
Iran to say these things with one breath, and on
the other breath, to say that the world can trust
Iran with technologies that would lead to a nuclear
weapon. And the Iranians, of course, there's the
nuclear issue; we're working with the EU-3. But
there is also Iranian support for terrorism in the
Palestinian territories with Hezbollah. There is
the decision or the ability of an unaccounted few
-- unaccountable few inside Iran to repress and
frustrate the desires of its own people. But the
Middle East that Iran wants and apparently is prepared
to work for is fundamentally
different than the Middle East that is emerging,
and certainly one that is at odds with American
interests.
QUESTION: Now I know you have repeatedly denied
any interest in national
Office and running for national office. You've said
you wanted to be NFL Commissioner, after you resume
your academic career. You accurately predicted Redskins
over Dallas. Do you want to predict Redskins over
the Giants next week?
SECRETARY RICE: I'll see how it's going, closer
to the time. I'll get back to you. (Laughter.)
QUESTION: Thank you very much, Madame Secretary.
SECRETARY RICE: Thank you.
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